“Above all else, I wanted the symphony
to sound flamenco”
by Manuel Moraga
An inquisitive musician who enjoys all
the music that goes in his ears and comes out
of hands, Juan Carmona starts off at the shores
of North Africa in his latest record, and gets
right to the heart of a sort of European musical
culture we might call classica, always through
the prism his basic expression is based on: the
forms of flamenco. The Bulgarian Symphony Orchestra
directed by Dominique Debart, Diego Carrasco,
Macanita, Esperanza Fernández, Guadiana,
Pepe Luis Carmona, Joaquín Grilo and Diego
Amador among others flesh out “Sinfonía
Flamenca”, this new recording project by
a French gypsy guitarist and composer tired of
people just considering his passport because he
uses the universal language of music to cross
all borders.
How would Juan Carmona describe
Juan Carmona?
Well, I’m a flamenco… I come from
a gypsy family and at the weddings, at Christmas,
it’s always fiesta, there was always flamenco
in my house. I’v been in the world of flamenco
since I was nine. But I’m also a flamenco
who likes to try different things that go beyond
flamenco and I’ve always liked bringing
all the experiences I’ve had to the realm
of flamenco. This is very important for me. That’s
why above all else, I wanted the symphony to sound
flamenco.
Foto: Web Juan Carmona
When, how and why did you
begin work on something like this?
I was living in Jerez de la Frontera for nine
years and as we all know, it’s a city where
there are a lot of singers and solo guitar isn’t
as abundant as in Madrid or Córdoba. So
for nine years I was accompanying cante and dance,
which is very important, but at the same time
I was already thinking about a composition: I’ve
always believed it was very important for a solo
guitarist to compose a work where you could hear
the full gamut of sounds. An orchestra might have
as many as fifty musicians between wind, strings
and so on. So I thought that might have something
to contribute to flamenco and even to my own music.
From that premise I began to compose the symphony,
but naturally, for someone coming from the world
of flamenco, it’s very very complicated
because in flamenco few musicians read music.
So I had the idea in my head, but I had to find
people who could write everything in proper music.
And that went on for a long time until it finally
came out. After that, I holed up in the studio
and that’s where I’ve been until now.
“We’re
mixing two different philosopies with completely
different feelings”
Juan Carmona – foto: Rafael Manjavacas
Did you see it as a riskly
project? Did you think it might get out of hand
or end up as something other than what you had
planned?
Of course. It was a very risky undertaking because
we’re mixing two different philosopies:
the flamenco one, which is oral tradition from
the grass roots, and the classical world, which
is more intellectual and is written. They have
very different feelings. But what I was trying
to demonstrate is that in the end, music is music.
What matters is how you do it. For me, that’s
very very important. In actual fact when I did
the bulerías in Jerez with Diego Carrasco
and all the others, they couldn’t believe
it because they weren’t expecting anything
like that. The first thing I did was to pay a
lot of attention to the compás, which is
the most important element of flamenco, it’s
what lets anyone, percussionist, dancer, singer,
etc. be able to jump right in. Without compás
no one can do anything. It’s the prime consideration
and I think it came out because I got to Jerez,
a city full of bulerías rhythm, and they
were all very surprised.
“I put melody
and harmony to the style of Jerez dancers”
Working with all the instruments
of the symphony, does that help define the guitar
message, or do you create a different and complementary
message?
If you analyze what I’ve done you’ll
see for example, for the violins I put music and
harmony to the style of Jerez dancers. So I think
sometimes (not always, because I’d have
to dissect the entire work, bit by bit) that’s
a big help, and there are some things which are
introductions where I wanted to give the color
of a symphony orquestra. For example, in the introduction
to the first movement, for the violin part I drew
from the visual images of the dancers of Jerez
and gave them melody and harmony. So I think sometimes
(not always, because you’d have to take
the whole work and analyze every detail), it really
helps a lot, and there are times there are introductions
whiere I wanted to give more color to the symphony.
For example, in the introduction to the first
movement the idea was to be the introduction to
a symphony, it has nothing to do with the world
of flamenco, but I that’s what I wanted,
to travel from one world to the other.
So you had the music thought
out and there were people to help you transcribe
it… But when you heard it, when it actually
took shape, did you actually see your ideas reflected,
or was it different and in need of modification?
In actual fact it’s very complicated to
get into this kind of work. Someone who knows
music sees it all very clearly, they can write
music the way others write a book. But for us
it’s different, because flamenco is a form
of music that comes out the way it comes out,
on the spot, less thought-out. First, you have
to compose. Then you make the arrangements for
the orchestra and lastly, the flamenco musicians’
part. And that was where you could see if there
was anything strange, once it all came together.
But while I was composing for the orchestra I
didn’t realize it until it was recorded,
and then I saw some things worked and others didn’t.
“The most
important thing was the rhythm of this work»
You give a lot of importance
to the percussive elements, the voices and the
“jaleo” [cheering] which also make
rhythm…
Exactly [he interrupts]… …and a lot of
jaleos are brought right to the surface…why?
Because the main idea, like I said, was rhythm,
and you how good jaleo sounds when it fits just
right in the compás and that enhances the
rhythm. For me, the most important thing was the
rhythm of this work. The first question people
always ask is how I managed to get an orchestra
to play in compás, since that’s the
most difficult thing in the world. And the key
is that the first thing I worked on wasn’t
the beauty of the violines for example, but making
sure everything was in rhythm. So everything that
was jaleo and percussion took on a very important
role.
There are two dedications
to flamenco musicians, to Isidro Muñoz
and Paco de Lucía.
Isidro Muñoz continues to be a very important
person for me. In ’96 I made a record called
Borboréo, which in the gypsy language means
Jerez de la Frontera and it was a tribute to that
city. That was when I met Isidro Muñoz
and he did a really great job with me in the sense
that he’s a person who throws himself into
things and he taught me a lot…that’s when
I started to breathe. He opened the world of flamenco
for me and I wanted to remember him with a dedication.
As far as Paco de Lucía, what can I say
that hasn’t already been said… He’s
the one who’s inspired me the most and encourages
me to keep going.
The third dedication is to
your son and is titled Django. Is that his name
or was it to remember Django Reinhardt?
There’s been some confusion about that.
The piece is actually dedicated to my son, but
at the same time I have a lot of respect for Django
Reinhardt. I even play with people lilke Bireli
Lagrene and Raphael Fays who are major stars in
that kind of music and I love what they do. So
some people say what’s on the record is
a tribute to Django and I don’t mind because
I have a lot of respect for that man, but that
piece was really written for my children.
“I still haven’t
been able to offer my work here in Spain”
Juan Carmona – foto: Rafael Manjavacas
What countries does Juan
Carmona usually work in?
A lot of people think I only work in France,
but that’s not so. For example, I just returned
from a tour of the U.S. and I’ve also been
in Rumania, Túnez, Marruecos and many other
countries. I go wherever the call me, not only
France.
The reason I ask is because
your professional activities are very broad, you
have recordings, and yet it’s not easy to
see you in Spain.
Yes, it’s funny, and I’m glad you
ask, a lot of people say the same thing. Look
at my previous record “Orillas”, which
is a tribute to Arab culture and flamenco and
was nominated for a Grammy, along with José
Mercé, Diego Cigala, Serranito, was finally
won by Pepe de Lucía. I’ve also got
a prize from Madrid from the “Certamen Paco
de Lucía”, and a prize from Jerez,
I’ve got prizes that few people have. And
what other foreigner was ever nominated for a
Grammy in the category of flamenco? So it’s
strange I still haven’t been able to offer
my work here in Spain. And if you ask why, well
I just don’t know. Sometimes I think it
might be racism. Then other times I think, why
should they call me when there are dozens in Spain
who play really well, and it’s true there
are some great guitarists. But no, I don’t
really know the answer.
I suppose by “rascism”
you mean because you’re not Spanish…
Well, maybe the word racism is a little strong,
but we all know how the flamenco world is very
closed, and not only that, I think it’s
also a world full of uneducated people. It’s
very hard to have a conversation with flamenco
people. I also been in Jerez and played for everyone,
Agujetas, Terremoto, Paquera’s family…
So it’s all a mystery.
It sounds like you’re
referring to the prejudice “if he’s
not Spanish he can’t play flamenco”,
which is what might be going through programmers’
minds…
Yes, but then those people aren’t doing
their job, because if they were, they’d
have to see I was nominated for a Grammy, and
the music is right there for them to hear, and
I’ve recorded with Duquende, with Montse,
with Potito, Carles Benavent, Jorge Pardo, Moraíto,
Manolito Sanlúcar, Chano Domínguez…
I’ve also played with the Marseilles opera,
the Bolshoi…. I’ve been around for years,
I’m no newcomer, and this is a strange situation.
How would you recommend people
listen to this record?
People who understand flamenco are going to get
my message, or at least that’s what I hope.
It’s not a superficial thing, I didn’t
decide to play with an orchestra because it’s
pretty, not at all. What I was aiming for was
to bring the world of classical music to flamenco.
That way people can hear things they’re
not accustomed to, like an orchestra playing bulerías.
The first impression might be a little strange,
but at the same time, you can’t just listen
to a record once, especially not something like
this. The more you listen to it, the more you’re
going to understand that the most important thing
for me is flamenco. Now for someone who doesn’t
know flamenco it might be a little more difficult
to appreciate, because if you listen to the flamenco
symphony as if it were classical music, it’s
not going to be easy because I’m not classical
musician, I have no knowledge of that. I like
listening to Mozart, Pat Metheny o Django Reinhardt,
and I’ve taken all those influences to make
my own music, but I’m not a classical musician
but a flamenco one. So I don’t actually
know how this work is going to be received by
someone with a classical background. What I do
recommend is listening to it without intellectual
analysis. You have to listen to it and see if
it gets to you or not, without getting carried
away by analysis.
