Andrei Shapiro & Niño de Bela
Interview with Antonio El Pipa by Niño de Bela at Silvia Durán's Centro de Danza Española y Baile Flamenco.
“Because I was really crazy about dance”
We’re at Silvia Durán’s Center of Spanish and Flamenco dance in Tel Aviv to talk to Antonio El Pipa, a great maestro from the birthplace of flamenco, Jerez de la Frontera. The object of his visit to Israel is a dance course, and his appearance as guest artist in Jaffo at the Casa de la Fundación de los Coreógrafos.
N.B.: Antonio, I want to ask about your family. When people say “Antonio El Pipa”, Juana “la del Pipa”, La Tía Juana “la del Pipa”…this is a family of flamenco tradition, from the roots. What can you tell us about those roots?
A.P.: It’s very simple, I was born into a gypsy family of artists in Jerez de la Frontera in the neighborhood of Santiago, so I had a specific identity even before I decided to become a dancer. I was lucky to be born into this family, in this city and in this culture. I’m one of the happiest men in the world when I talk about my work, and being born into this family, even more so. I am forever grateful to my grandmother Tía Juan la del Pipa. She was more or less the one to blame for the fact that the generation of my aunt Juana and my own have followed the artistic line we inherited.
Everyone loves their grandmother, but mine was a true artist and told all kinds of stories…about when she went to festivals, when Antonio Mairena sang for her, when Sordera sang for her…it was all so wonderful to have a grandmother with so much art. And for me, so crazy about dance, she was my first idol.
But then my family are all very humble people, very natural, a Jerez gypsy family whose greatest treasure is the love that unites us. A wonderful family whom I love very much, the people of my parents, my brothers and sisters…the family is very important to me.
N.B.: Antonio, how did you begin dancing?
A.P.: Like any little gypsy kid from Santiago in Jerez. It’s the most natural thing for us. Kids ride bikes, play ball, run through the streets and we also dance bulerías on the corner or at the door of the church. It’s part of our games. We would put the ball aside to do palmas, or have a bicycle race and then challenge each other to see who can clap their hands the fastest.
N.B.: How was your artistic career going before making your own company?
A.P.: The beginning with Manuel Morao was really nice. I was part of his company, and then with the company of Tati, Antonio Vargas, Cristina Hoyos, Carlos Francos, Lola Flores…many people from whom I learned a great deal before putting together my own company.
N.B.: So how did you get from that level of child’s play to become a professional?…what was the process?
A.P.: It was because I liked it alot. I liked it too much to leave it as a game. You asked about my early years, they were like that of any gypsy in Jerez who was immersed in flamenco dance and singing, like eating or drinking water. But then you start to think whether or not you want to go professional. Whether you want to devote your entire life to this, that’s another question. I think I took that step the first time I was on stage and I realized how important dance becomes in a theater.
N.B.: When was that?
A.P.: Professionally, with Manuel Morao at the Gran Teatro of Córdoba, and that was a long time ago. But I remember it well, the way we always remember the first time of important things, as something exceptional. From that point on I knew this was going to be my life.
N.B.: And how did you develop your own style? You have a style of your own, how did you manage it?
A.P.: I think that’s the family line – in the first place, my arms are distinctive, and the arm style is from my grandmother, from my mother, my aunt – these are the ladies who make up the style of Jerez de la Frontera. And later on, all that passed through my interior and came out as men’s dance – the arms of a man who loves and respects the aesthetic very much, and who worships beauty. I think that is what defines me. And afterwards the evolution as a dancer. I continue to learn from the great maestros, I keep learning from everyone who has something good to share.
N.B: Nowadays people talk alot about technique, tradition, the way things used to be and the changes that have taken place in flamenco as it has spread throughout the world. And it’s a good thing because people are more aware of the gypsies and their history, the persecution, where they come from and how this art came into being…but on the other hand, there seems to be a loss of purity.
My experience is different. I mean, I’m a gypsy and I think when gypsies go out on a stage we grow, we develop, we don’t lose purity. And I believe in that struggle between technique and purity, you need to know just enough technique go be able to forget about it. When you really know the technique, when you have it and it’s a part of you, you can forget about it. You don’t need to think about it. All you have to do is show your art. And more than show it, share it. I think when we’re on stage we have to share what we feel. I don’t need to demonstrate anything to anyone, what I want is to share what I feel with the audience…what I feel as a man, as a gypsy, as an artist. How do I do that? I do it via technique. I need that technique in order to dance. But once I learn it, I leave it in the dressing-room and don’t think about it again.
N.B.: What does art mean to you? What’s pure, if purity even exists?
I don’t think I’m the one…. I mean, I don’t think I own the truth. In a sense I do have the truth, in my hands, my personal purity, my feelings as a man, a gypsy and a performer, but it’s not for me to say who’s pure and who isn’t. I think you can tell when there’s purity…you can feel it.
“I think you can tell when there’s purity…you can feel it.”
What the new generation is dancing…today’s young people, they’re very ill-informed. There isn’t enough information. There are people who are unprepared and uninformed. There are people who are unable to do something well, so they invent new paths. There are people who don’t even know how to mark a verse of soleá, so they go and choreograph a bunch of steps. But that’s not what it’s about. That not flamenco dance.
N.B.: So you have to learn what my teacher Susana Manzano calls “the flamenco protocol”.
A.P.: Naturally there are guidelines, measures, there are structures and forms laid down by the great maestros. That’s their legacy, so let’s respect it, let’s learn it well. Afterwards, each one must feel, and find his or her own personality…that’s the most important thing.
N.B: What’s your favorite flamenco form, the one you most like to dance?
A.P.: Well, in flamenco when I hear a voice singing soleá, it really gets to me. I think the soleá is a bit like the mother. And then, I’m from Jerez, which means when I hear some bulerías palmas I can’t keep still. So it’s really the 3X4 rhythm that moves me. But then when I hear siguiriyas [he laughs]… It’s very hard to choose one single flamenco form, fortunately. But if I really had to, it would be the soleá: the dance of soleá is my mother dance – the essence.
N.B.: What’s the origin of your nickname?
A.P.: I believe it’s from my grandfather. Many years ago there was a man who love to smoke pies, and they called him “El Pipa”. My grandmother was the wife of El Pipa, and that’s where the artistic name came from.
N.B.: Speaking of your grandmother, I remember a scene from the movie “Gypsy Caravan” where you aunt says to her mother, Tía Juana la del Pipa, that she’s in all the flamenco books because she weighed two hundred and sixty pounds, “…but when she raised her arms it was like a cathedral”.
A.P.: Exactly. That’s an apt description, because she had a great presence, a tremendous personality, she was very fat, but when she raised her arms, she was the most beautiful woman in the world, and she still weighed two hundred and sixty pounds, but she seemed to take flight. It was like watching a dove or a seagull.
N. B.: I want to thank you on behalf of the entire flamenco community for having come to share your art and knowledge with us.
A.P.: I was really looking forward to being here. I’m happy and content, receiving a lot of affection and respect. People knew or wanted to know the style of Antonio El Pipa. And I’m delighted with the response, the way people are working with me, working hard day after day in my classes, and how they admire me. I’m thrilled to get to know this country and its people. And I’m delighted with the three teachers, Silvia, Sharon and Racheli, who have come together for this project in order to make it happen. Really happy to be here.
